‘In country, I feel like the magic of songwriting is still very apparent and very dominant.’

That said, it was about three years after that by the time I had the next one [laughs], but I definitely had more confidence in my writing.

I was pushing the envelope instead of just doing things that are normal, I was starting to add things to the songs that were unique.

I got on a really good run. Luke Bryan recorded a bunch of my songs [including four Hot Country No. 1s on his 2013 album, Crash My Party]

Which of your songs are you proudest of? Not necessarily the songs that have been most successful, but perhaps mean the most to you?

Yeah, I have a different perspective on that. I think simple-sounding smash hit songs that everybody can dance to are really hard, even harder than sad heartbreak songs.

So sometimes I actually am proud of songs like That’s My Kind of Night [2013], for Luke [Bryan], that people maybe think I wouldn’t be especially proud of, because those are so tough to come up with.

But if you boiled it down it would be songs like You’re Gonna Miss This [Trace Adkins, 2007], Marry Me [Thomas Rhett, 2017], I Lived It [Blake Shelton, 2017], Remember You Young [Thomas Rhett, 2019], Sand in my Boots [Morgan Wallen, 2021], things like that. Those songs where truth comes through are really hard to beat.

Have you had certain sessions or collaborations that have been difficult or challenging, and how do you get past those sort of situations?

Y’know, I don’t have a ton of those stories. I’m in a place where I don’t write with anybody that I wouldn’t also sit down and watch a ball game with. I’m in a really fortunate position where I don’t have to chase stuff down.

But, anytime a session gets slow… y’see I like to write the song on the spot, or at least get the skeleton of the song in a few minutes at the beginning and spend the rest of the day kind of putting in the color and the detail, editing and stuff like that.

“I don’t write with anybody that I wouldn’t also sit down and watch a ball game with.”

So, anybody that is like very slow and methodical, who wants to write from the top down, one line at a time, I’m not very good at that; I don’t have the patience for that. I just want to hear what the whole thing would sound like and see if it’s worth it first.

And anybody that is dead set on finishing a song that’s a ‘B’, that’s not amazing, I’ll bail on that, because I’m like, hey, we already know this is not great, let’s start over.

Also, if somebody is really trying to chase something that’s purposely not commercial, I have a hard time with that, because I instinctively go toward melodies that are memorable.

Generally, though, I’m proud of the fact that I can be a chameleon and blend in with whatever the session is.

You tend to work with one or two co-writers. What do you think of the current trend for many more writers, sometimes 10+, getTING writing credits?

As far as the US is concerned, I’m very positive about it. Not necessarily regarding the business of radio and royalty payments, things like that, we have a long way to go there. But as far as the music is concerned, I think there’s something for everybody.

And people are also able to tell you if they like it or not straight away. It’s a unique time. You can write a song one day and know what three million people think about by the time you get home. The whole world’s an A&R department.

Do you think streaming has been good for country, or do the DSPs sometimes seem more focused on hip-hop, pop and other genres, maybe because they are more global?

I don’t know, for me, it’s more about… when I first moved to town, being a part of a project was really important and there was a magic to it. Artists put a lot into the entire album. So it gets really dangerous when people are just listening to a song or two and then moving on to the next thing.

There are a lot of great albums now where people don’t hear cut number nine, which might be a deeply personal and really brilliant song.

But then there are things like the Morgan Wallen album where people know and love every track, so there’s still room for those projects. We need to make that happen more often.

I also think it’s a little damaging for the creative process, because it’s based on a hit, and then what’s the next hit, rather than here’s my body of work.

And has streaming been good for songwriters?

There are aspects that need some serious fixing, definitely. For example, if you were putting out an album and you heard one of my songs and wanted to record it, but you’re a new artist, putting it out on your own and not taking it to radio – I don’t stand to make any income off that song.

So what we would have to do is say, ‘If you want to record it then we have to participate in the master somehow’.

I mean, someone could make $300,000 from the streams on one of my songs, and I might make $37. Like, it’s an insane discrepancy. It’s not like it’s a tenth; it’s a thousandth.

It’s about figuring out how to how to include the publishers and writers in that huge take the labels, the master owners, get from streaming. Because the money is there, it’s just a matter of distributing it properly, breaking off a little more of the master for the publishing piece. It comes down to that.

And do you think enough is being done by the most powerful people and companies to change that, or are there too many vested interests happy with the status quo?

Oh yeah, if you own a label right now, or you own the masters, you couldn’t be more happy. From that point of view it’s the best scenario there’s ever been. Once you’re dipping into that slice of the pie, things are great, but when you’re just the writer and the publisher, it’s really tough.

That’s a really tough battle, because it will take a change of heart, or it will take a complete restructuring of the master split, and that’s going to be difficult because a lot of times it’s one and the same entity.

For an independent publisher like us, we get the job done. We have a family atmosphere and all our writers are successful. But at the same time, they are all geared toward writing songs that could work at radio, because that’s where all the income is for us.

And it’s sad to think, when you leave a session, I love this song, but it’s not a radio song. Maybe it’s too long, or too slow, or too strange – which can all be good things! But as a writer, I’m just doing that for the goodness of the word, I’m basically giving that away. That’s kind of the mentality right now.

The inevitable result is that writers think about the radio too much. So there are some songs that maybe don’t come out of their soul, songs that need to be written, but they cut that idea short because they need to put food on the table.

I would love it if they could figure that out, but it’s going to be tougher than it appears, because it’s not a matter of doubling or tripling the percentage publishers and songwriters get. If they increased it tenfold, it still wouldn’t be enough.

How did you get involved with Morgan Wallen’s Dangerous project, and why do you think it has been such a record-breaking success?

I certainly don’t think anybody necessarily saw it coming. We just knew that he’s kind of… he’s really the best. I mean, Chris Stapleton is amazing singer as well, and those two… Morgan sings so well, and he sings with such a such an energy, that it just affects people. Plus he’s just insanely good at picking songs that he loves.

He goes really, really country sometimes, but he’s also not afraid to blend in some trap beats now and then, he kind of broke the mold with that. A lot of fans love hip-hop and they love country, and he just wasn’t afraid to mesh it every now and again.

Sand In My Boots, though, that was just a piano ballad, and he simply made a great recording of that song. I didn’t write that with him in mind or anything like that. He heard the song, loved it and wanted to record it.

He just picks songs that he loves, and right now they just happen to be what everybody else loves. He also puts on a great show, there’s a lot of heart in what he does.

“A lot of fans love hip-hop and they love country, and [Wallen] just wasn’t afraid to mesh it every now and again.”

But I think – and being a songwriter, I’m always gonna think this – it comes down to song selection, and then performance, owning those songs, as a vocalist.

And, you know, he’s a small town guy that a lot of people can relate to. He goes through life, makes some mistakes, goes fishing. We needed another one of those, and if I go to the beach right now, every other bluetooth speaker is playing the Morgan album.

That’s good for us and good for the genre. And it gives us something to aim at too. Because, not to get into this too much, but a lot of new artists have decided they’re gonna write every song that they put out. Morgan has watched for a few years and noticed that some of the biggest artists in our genre’s history either don’t write their own songs or write some of them.

He’s a great writer, but he knows he doesn’t have to write them all. On Dangerous, I wrote one with him and three others, we just pitched him. Same thing on his next project.

It gives writers in town a great project to aim at, and have a little bit of pay-off, even if they don’t get the single.

You mentioned that he makes mistakes. What was your view about the controversy that came with that video – and then the fallout, being snubbed by the Grammys etc?

You know, I think it would be really difficult to be the one in the room making all those decisions [at awards ceremonies etc], because we never want to condone what was said. And he doesn’t either; I’ve never heard him be upset about not getting a nomination or an invite or whatever. It’s not like behind closed doors he’s complaining about this or that.

He’s like, ‘I know that this was a mistake, and so whatever it takes.’ But it was also cool, I thought, that he was able to win ACM Album of the Year, so that the record gets the credit that it deserves as a body of work.

It’s difficult, and I just think it was a matter of all these companies and radio stations and everyone trying to figure out what the punishment should be, if he should be completely removed from everything forever, or if we should separate the art from the actions of the artist.

It’s a really tricky road, there are no written rules, and I don’t want to get into that conversation, really, but I will say that I like it when people own up to their mistakes and I do know that he is genuinely sorry.

Tell us about how you started by Tape Room in 2011 and what you wanted to achieve with it?

Well, we definitely go for quality over quantity, we’re not trying to sign a whole lot of writers. I wanted to be a publisher as long as I’ve wanted to be a songwriter. Some writers, they have some hits and then they just start signing writers under them, because that’s what they’re supposed to do.

I was not like that. I was always wanting to find writers, coach them, I love that. I love the part of my life where I get to mentor up-and-coming writers and then see them get successful. I want my writers to go on and beat me for Writer of the Year.

It also scratches the A&R itch for me, because if my writers have a bunch of songs that are better than anything I’ve written lately, I get to pitch those. It basically helps me let more great songs see the light of day.

We’re obviously not a major corporation, I’m having to run it out of my checking account, you know. But that’s okay, I’m happy to put my money where my mouth is.

We only have three employees, we have a dozen writers, and that’s a good. It’s not going to get much bigger than that, maybe a little bit bigger, but I’m very hands on and I want to stay that way. I want to be able to hear those songs and help those writers

In fact I would say I probably need that in my work/life balance; just writing the songs myself doesn’t quite do it. I want to be part of a successful company that can find and nurture these writers, then watch and celebrate as they go from the sidelines into the main game.

What is your view in the current trend for successful writers to sell their catalogs?